'Stranger Things' Creators Break Down the Karen vs. Demogorgon Scene

We wanted a camera here, but that's a line cross.

Anyone who goes to film school will understand this.

[Ross] I don't know what that is.

That's a camera, that's a camera, that's a camera,

that's a person, that's a person.

No one even needs to go to film school now

because they've seen this drawing.

I'm gonna try it again.

So this is a person.

Hey, I'm Matt.

And I'm Ross.

We are, I guess, collectively the Duffer Brothers,

and this is Notes on a Scene for Stranger Things.

[loud bashing]

[Fernado by ABBA]

♪ If I had to do the same again ♪

♪ I would my friend ♪

♪ Fernando ♪

There's a lot of great home invasion movies

that we looked at specifically for this sequence alone.

Home Alone,

Lost Boys,

Poltergeist here.

For a sequence like this, the geography always plays

a big part if you look at what Spielberg did

in Jurassic Park. If you even look at

what Chris Columbus did in Home Alone,

or David Fincher did in Panic Room,

you have to really establish,

even before the home invasion comes,

you want to establish the space and the geography,

and you want the characters and the audience

to both understand that.

So as we're moving the camera around,

as in our case, the monster, the invader is coming,

we want to really understand the space really well.

[loud bashing]

[Fernando by ABBA]

♪ If I had to do the same again ♪

♪ I would my friend ♪

♪ Fernando ♪

[music cutting in and out]

Fernando was not written into the script.

We tried a bunch of different songs here.

I believe this was a suggestion from Nora,

who's our music supervisor, and we played

a bunch of different songs over here.

And what we really liked about this

was just the juxtaposition of,

it played, it's just the last song

that you'd be expecting to play when a monster's attacking,

but it's definitely a song that you believe that a drunk

Karen would be listening to as she got into the bathtub.

And also it's like, it hasn't been overused.

So we try to avoid songs that have been overused in TV.

You don't want it to be too obvious.

And I thought, I would say this particular shot,

where they're watching the wall and you're just hearing

the sound, I mean, that's based on Shyamalan's Signs.

There's that great scene where they're just

listening to the aliens, you don't see the aliens,

but you know they're on the other side of the walls.

We always thought that was a really effective

suspense sequence, so it was a big reference for us here.

Oftentimes the songs are written into the script.

Like, Running up That Hill was written into the script.

It's actually kind of unusual that we're figuring out

in post-production, but the main thing that we try to do

is we just don't want to put a cool needle drop

because you can put a cool needle drop,

you want it always to come from character.

So you always have to start from the point of

what is Max listening to?

What would she be listening to?

You kind of build out a playlist for her.

Karen, what would she be listening to?

You build out a playlist for her.

And then you see kind of what will also work cinematically.

So you're working off character

and you're working off rhythm, pace, and mood.

So all of that leans into the choice of the song.

[loud bashing]

What's your location, over?

Picket, five minutes away.

You're way ahead of us, radio as soon as you're there.

I will.

Nancy, be careful.

Hold on.

[tires squealing]

[dramatic theme music]

♪ There was something in the air that night ♪

♪ The stars were bright ♪

♪ Fernando ♪

This demogorgon, now season one, we had a guy named Mark

in a suit.

Obviously, you know, for this season, we needed him

to do more, our monsters to be able to do more

and maneuver more around.

So this is, it's still based on that same

design, but this is Weta that is doing these VFX.

But really what we have is just, we have someone

with a ball on a stick here and they just do this

so the camera operator can know where to--

[Matt] Can frame for them.

Can frame for the camera.

And it's always taller than you would think.

So we'll just take out measuring and we'll just try

to get it as close as we can to make sure

that we're framing properly for the demogorgon.

But it's always jarring on the day

because you're just looking at a tennis ball.

It's not particularly scary.

♪ They were shining there for you and me ♪

♪ For liberty ♪

♪ Fernando ♪

♪ Though I never thought that we could lose ♪

♪ There's no regret ♪

♪ If I had to do the same again ♪

♪ I would my friend ♪

♪ Fernando ♪

This is one of our favorite shots of the season.

So the way that we did this is

this frame that you're seeing here, this tub,

was not inside that bedroom.

So this was a separate how would you even describe that?

It was up on a platform.

It was obviously filled with water.

This is not fake CG water, this is real water.

And Nell and Cara practiced a long time just in sort of how

to hold their breath in a way that looked cool.

We talked about eyes open, eyes closed,

and we all collectively decided that this looked the best.

But we essentially stitched the two shots together.

All of this, I don't even know how to draw like this,

but all of this is a separate set on the floor.

[Matt] Yeah, it's the bathroom.

It's the bathroom.

So we shot the move and we had to get the timing just right.

Our camera op just had to get the timing just right

and sort of memorize what the actual speed was.

And then we did the same thing with Cara and Nell in a tub

on a separate part of the stage,

on a raised platform.

And then on the day we would, we stitched the shots together

to make sure that--

The speed worked.

The speed and timing worked.

And I think some of these, we had to add some bubbles

and stuff to help sort of smooth out this transition line.

But hopefully when you watch it now,

it looks like it's just one continuous shot

and that that bathtub is in fact in this bathroom,

which it is absolutely not.

♪ There was something in the air that night ♪

♪ The stars were bright ♪

♪ Fernando ♪

This heel, we really wanted to smash Karen's heel here.

This is not a real shoe.

This is completely CG.

Yeah, but when she picked this out, I think that shot

is not in there anymore where she kicks them off,

but we fell in love with this ridiculous slipper.

It wasn't super expensive to build a CG crush able heel,

but there was a lot of, do we really need this?

And we said, absolutely.

I think it was worth it, I hope.

Yeah, I think it was worth these two seconds.

[growling]

[tense theme music]

Karen!

[lights chirping]

Heavens to Betsy.

Karen?

Everything all right?

Honey?

I don't, hopefully you can't tell.

I don't want to point out mistakes.

Oh no, maybe you can't, maybe you can't see there.

You'll see the faucet here,

is not, I don't know what that drawing is,

but it's not there.

I guess this is the water.

It's not there because for safety reasons,

They were gonna, could have possibly slammed my head.

Yeah, so it's a CG faucet.

Is it CG in the next shot?

Yeah. Yeah, it's CG.

Yeah, no faucet.

[heavy breathing]

So this is, this is all CG because we had,

they had to keep popping out

and they had to protect their head.

Now this shot it seemed simple, but it was deceptively hard

because sometimes they would just pop out and their hair.

Like you can't have, it's like very comedic

if they're covered in bubbles.

Like if there's a crown of bubbles on their head,

which happened a lot of times,

it's like, it really takes you out of the horror

of the scene.

But again, Cara and Nell had so much fun.

But they delivered, they delivered every time.

And again, Nell's doing a good job of pretending

like she has soap in her eyes, but she does not

because this is not soap.

It's fake bubbles, we don't know what it is.

[background music playing]

Holly!

Holy smokes.

[growling]

Oh, God.

Stay back.

Stay back!

Stay back!

[roaring]

Actually, this shot was a nightmare,

which was Ted going through the wall.

I mean, it's one of those stunts gone wrong.

Nobody was hurt.

He just, I think we tried it three or four different times.

And each time, the stunt man didn't go through the wall.

He just hit the wall.

We kept scoring it to make it thinner and thinner,

but it was, we needed to get him over the bed

and onto the floor.

Otherwise the shots, it didn't look very exciting.

Even though I'm sure it was exciting for the stunt guy.

So we had to keep scoring it more and more until it was like

very flimsy at the end of the day.

And then we finally on, I think, take three.

Your bad memory.

I mean, that's actually, no, no, no.

We had, we had to abandon ship.

We did abandon, yeah.

We didn't shoot.

Oh, you're talking about take three many months later.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm sorry.

Um,

see, conflict resolution on display.

They had to rework and rebuild the whole wall.

And then we came back like six months later and shot it.

And I think at that point,

the wall was built properly and it worked,

worked perfectly, and we were all extremely relieved.

Joe Crest.

this is, this is a stunt guy made to look like Joe Chrest.

So until we, if we go forward.

Not Joe Chrest, still not Joe Chrest.

Keep going, we had three cameras.

Three cameras, so I will say we had a camera,

uh, well, keep going.

[chuckling]

We just had to--

Back it up though.

I think, so the two, the bedroom,

these are actually bedrooms.

I'm just going to draw on here.

You'll be blown away by my drawing.

So it was like this, and obviously we were,

we were firing him through this wall this way.

And we had a camera here and we had a camera,

kind of an overhead camera here.

And then we had a camera,

we had a camera here, right?

Wait, back it up.

I don't even understand your drawing

to be perfectly honest.

I don't even know what I'm looking at.

[Matt] We had an overhead and we had this.

[Ross] Yes.

We wanted a camera here, but that's a line cross.

Anyone who goes to film school understand this.

[Ross] I don't know what that is.

That's a camera, that's a camera, that's a camera.

That's a person, that's a person.

No one even needs to go to film school now

because they've seen this drawing.

I'm going to try it again.

So this is a person.

This is a person.

[Ross] Yeah.

[Matt] The bar was low.

If our careers go down, you can teach at film school.

Yeah, that's great.

[growling]

[panting]

[dramatic theme music]

[roaring]

[screaming]

So this is not Cara.

This is a stunt double.

And what we're particularly proud of is this is,

this is an old, this is an old school filmmaking trick.

Whereas the shot, if you, can we rewind a little bit?

This is Cara.

So it's a single shot and the camera's panning.

And as it's panning and we're going with Nell--

We leave Kara.

We leave Kara, we lose sight of her.

And there was a stunt double hiding.

[Matt] And that behind that wall there.

You can kind of see Cara there sort of duck out of the way

if you're really paying attention.

And then she ducks out of the way.

And then our stunt double ran in and then she slammed.

So it's a single shot, two different actors playing,

playing Karen in a matter of five seconds.

And this is, I'll save you

from having to go to film school.

This is called a Texas switch, though I don't know why.

I can't remember.

I definitely learned at some point, Google it.

Something like this, when you can just do it like

old school in camera without a cut.

It just, no one's going to notice.

I mean, now they will, because I guess we talked about it,

but no one's going to notice.

But it is going to leave a little bit more,

make it just feel more real and dramatic.

Mm-hm.

Mom!

[tense theme music]

[growling]

Oh!

You know, before this Holly has been in the show,

but really a small role.

She's really, this is the first time

she's taking center stage.

And so we try to spend a lot of that first episode,

allowing the audience to really get to know her

and care for her.

So once you put her in a scary, dangerous situation,

you're really worried about what's going to happen to her.

It really reminded me of Millie season one.

It's just, there's an understanding.

She's such an understanding of where the camera is,

how to play to the camera.

And then, like a sequence like this,

the way she was acting, yes, sometimes off screen,

she's joking around and having a lot of fun

and being a little kid.

But the minute you're like about to roll, she started,

I just remember watching her because this is one

of the earlier things that was shot with Nell.

And she was just hyping herself up.

She'd be jumping up and down, doing jumping Jacks.

Pushups.

Pushups, just doing everything she could

to just get in the moment.

And the minute you called action, she was just in it.

Get back!

[growling]

[tense theme music]

This is,

she had half a wine bottle here.

So she's not breaking anything here.

So she just kept swatting it against,

pretending there was,

I'm gonna do an awesome drawing here.

Oh, dude, this is gonna look inappropriate.

Anyway, it was,

[Ross chuckling]

[Matt chuckling]

it was, it was like half a half a wine bottle

and the other half was breaking.

But I think--

It was CG.

Cara throughout the seasons, part of the way she sort of

justified that Karen was oblivious that,

you know, in season one, there's a young girl, Eleven,

living in her basement.

And later that all these supernatural goings,

things are going on.

And one way that she convinced herself that Karen

would be unaware of this is that Karen is always

in almost every scene, at least a little bit drunk.

And so as we were devising this Wheeler house attack,

we thought it would be really fun, and Cara agreed,

that she's not sober in the moment.

And what then made it more fun is like,

what would her weapon of choice be?

And then we realized, but there's also this wine bottle,

which may be less realistic in terms of how deadly

it would be, but it felt appropriate

that Karen would weaponize...

Her alcoholism.

Her alcoholism against this beast.

So when we came up with that,

we thought it was too fun not to do.

And Cara luckily agreed.

So sometimes alcoholism can pay off.

I guess so.

[demogorgon chirping]

Stay away

from my daughter!

[roaring]

Mom, no!

[dramatic theme music]

[dramatic theme music]

It's inside.

I see it.

Get ready.

[door smashing]

[gun clicking]

[haunting music]

[bike chains rotating]

Nancy, what's going on?

Talk to me, what's happening?

Nancy!

[Karen] Stay away

from my daughter.

[yelling]

[dial tone sounding]

Karen's attack.

I remember, it was just we were writing it.

And you know, originally,

the plan was to do it sort of linearly.

But then we thought, I don't know.

I don't know how we came about it.

But it just seemed much more interesting to do it

in a nonlinear fashion to switch from her point of view

to Nancy's point of view.

I think because we wanted it to feel like,

you wanted to feel what Nancy felt like

in that moment.

You wanted the audience to be with Nancy and the horror

when she sees Karen like this.

So it's a little unorthodox, but it was scripted this way.

I remember Netflix was like, huh?

And was like, are you sure this is gonna work?

We're like, yeah, it's fine.

Yeah, so hopefully it does.

I promise you it works.

It does, but we switch over to sort of transition.

We do a couple things in order to do what we're doing

with the time, the shifting of time

as we're going into slow motion.

I think it was 72 frames as Natalia, who plays Nancy,

comes into the room to really get into her head.

And then when we're going back in time,

we're using sound to really communicate

that this is sort of a suspended moment

where we're going back.

[dial tone sounding]

[echoing crunch]

So we played around with taking all the music

and almost all the sound out and just playing it with

a dial tone.

And that finally, when we did that, we're like,

now I feel like I'm in Nancy's head and it feels as horrific

to the audience as it does to her.

Yeah, there was something disturbing

about the violence occurring over with very little sound

and just that awful dial tone.

[dial tone sounding]

[echoing smash]

[dial tone sounding]

[tense music rising]

This is all prosthetics, by the way.

Our makeup team is incredible.

Not enhanced at all by special effects.

It was just a debate of how far we could go

because she's actually not dead here,

but she's right on the line of death.

Maybe looking at it now, we may have gone a little far.

We may have pushed it.

Some doctor will weigh in online and let us know

whether this is actually survivable.

I think they're gonna say not.

Well, this is what concerns me here.

[Ross] It's deep, yeah.

[Matt] How deep the neck is.

We did take some blood off in the moment,

but it's effective, I think.

But I don't blame you for thinking she's dead

because she certainly looks fucking dead.

[Ross chuckling]

Initially, it was sort of a love letter to the films

that we grew up watching and also our childhood.

And as we've been working on it for 10 years,

it's become kind of grown into its own thing.

I mean, there have been so many people involved

aside from us, from our other writers to the actors,

and it's just become its own thing.

And then, so really this season is just about goodbye

to this story and these characters

and Hawkins and so on.

Obviously, there's still a lot of films that we pull from.

I mean, we are film nerds, but it's more, if anything,

talking about the rest of the seasons

and the shows and these characters.

Yeah, in some ways, it's a love letter as well

to this journey we've had making this show.

We didn't really realize it until we were reading

the final script with our cast.

But when we did, they were talking about how much the scenes

in the story reflected how they were feeling

as the show came to an end and their own experiences.

So, I mean, it wasn't really intentional,

but there is something a little meta in that it is

a reflection on this journey that we've all been through.

And we've obviously seen our younger cast grow into adults.

And I think that that's ultimately what the heart

of the story is.

It's coming of age.

So it is about the characters,

but it's also about the actors

and the journey that we've all been on.

I love how you're talking about something very emotional

over this image of, disgusting image of Karen.